Comments on: The Two Sides of An Organic vs. Chemical Story http://www.yourlocalmarketblog.com/2009/07/22/the-two-sides-of-an-organic-vs-chemical-story/ Organic Grocery Market, Shop Local, Small Farms, Family Farms Wed, 23 Mar 2011 19:01:43 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Gene Logsdon http://www.yourlocalmarketblog.com/2009/07/22/the-two-sides-of-an-organic-vs-chemical-story/#comment-6691 Gene Logsdon Wed, 12 May 2010 14:03:49 +0000 http://organictobe.org/?p=3065#comment-6691 Kyle, Diana, and Robert, I haven't gone back and looked at this entry for quite some time so until now I missed your thoughtful comments. Yes, Kyle, the Land Institute has this is mind with its perennial grains. In a pasture farming system, perennials that could be grazed for grain and forage are the ultimate, and then no cultivation at all would be necessary. Our current fixation on finding something other than meat, dairy products and eggs to sell for income makes us think of land in grass as "idle". Just because there is no plant products being sold from the land does not mean that animal products are not being sold every day, week and month. Robert, my corn in the picture does look like sweet corn but it is open pollenated field corn. Not that it is not "yum" to livestock. Gene Logsdon Kyle, Diana, and Robert, I haven’t gone back and looked at this entry for quite some time so until now I missed your thoughtful comments. Yes, Kyle, the Land Institute has this is mind with its perennial grains. In a pasture farming system, perennials that could be grazed for grain and forage are the ultimate, and then no cultivation at all would be necessary. Our current fixation on finding something other than meat, dairy products and eggs to sell for income makes us think of land in grass as “idle”. Just because there is no plant products being sold from the land does not mean that animal products are not being sold every day, week and month. Robert, my corn in the picture does look like sweet corn but it is open pollenated field corn. Not that it is not “yum” to livestock. Gene Logsdon

]]> By: Robert http://www.yourlocalmarketblog.com/2009/07/22/the-two-sides-of-an-organic-vs-chemical-story/#comment-6679 Robert Tue, 11 May 2010 06:49:43 +0000 http://organictobe.org/?p=3065#comment-6679 This is a fantastic blog. Can't believe it took me so long to find it. I too thought about the time aspect of it. In terms of yield versus investment over 5 years the intensively farmed land would probably win every time over yours, but then I took into consideration that you do other things with your land when not used for growing grain. So in the end, it might be an even race between grain only and grain and pasture rotation. But how about labor? Perhaps that is where your chemically dependent friend has the edge. As for why your crop seems stronger, we'd probably have to dig up the roots of one of the trees to really get down to the cause of it, but all things being equal, I can imagine that rotated land is better at retaining water than the intensively farmed land. I echo the above comment, this would be a fantastic subject for a proper field study. Still, the main thought on my mind after seeing those photos is how tasty your corn will be! Yum! This is a fantastic blog. Can’t believe it took me so long to find it.

I too thought about the time aspect of it. In terms of yield versus investment over 5 years the intensively farmed land would probably win every time over yours, but then I took into consideration that you do other things with your land when not used for growing grain. So in the end, it might be an even race between grain only and grain and pasture rotation. But how about labor? Perhaps that is where your chemically dependent friend has the edge.

As for why your crop seems stronger, we’d probably have to dig up the roots of one of the trees to really get down to the cause of it, but all things being equal, I can imagine that rotated land is better at retaining water than the intensively farmed land.

I echo the above comment, this would be a fantastic subject for a proper field study.

Still, the main thought on my mind after seeing those photos is how tasty your corn will be! Yum!

]]> By: Diana http://www.yourlocalmarketblog.com/2009/07/22/the-two-sides-of-an-organic-vs-chemical-story/#comment-6044 Diana Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:50:29 +0000 http://organictobe.org/?p=3065#comment-6044 Obviously there are a lot of variables here, but it would be fascinating to try and tease them out. Light: yes, corn is very light-sensitive. If the tree line runs truly north/south, this shouldn't be an issue. The shadows are probably due to the picture being taken in the morning...? Water: Water is being taken up by the trees, the corn, and the grass. It is stored by the soil, and yes organic matter definitely acts as a "sponge" to retain it. Crop density is another factor. The denser crop will have less water per plant available. Fascinating thought about the dew trapping of the grass, I wonder if that's ever been quantified? One easy test would be a row of soil moisture sensors strung across both fields, to get a profile of plant-available soil moisture. Any universities in your area? Sounds like a great master's project. Obviously there are a lot of variables here, but it would be fascinating to try and tease them out.

Light: yes, corn is very light-sensitive. If the tree line runs truly north/south, this shouldn’t be an issue. The shadows are probably due to the picture being taken in the morning…?

Water: Water is being taken up by the trees, the corn, and the grass. It is stored by the soil, and yes organic matter definitely acts as a “sponge” to retain it. Crop density is another factor. The denser crop will have less water per plant available. Fascinating thought about the dew trapping of the grass, I wonder if that’s ever been quantified?

One easy test would be a row of soil moisture sensors strung across both fields, to get a profile of plant-available soil moisture. Any universities in your area? Sounds like a great master’s project.

]]> By: Kyle http://www.yourlocalmarketblog.com/2009/07/22/the-two-sides-of-an-organic-vs-chemical-story/#comment-5450 Kyle Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:31:54 +0000 http://organictobe.org/?p=3065#comment-5450 Once again, a simple proof that not only is chemical farming totally unscientific and unsustainable, but that a national diet based on corn only makes sense for vertically-integrated grain cartels. Going off DennisP's comment about "idle" land, it does seem the sticking point of your system for most farmers is that in a given area, only ~17% of acreage could be devoted to a "cash crop" in a given year. I know cornstalks can be grazed or used as ensilage after harvest – I wonder whether you've thought about whether there would be a more ideal dual-purpose crop than corn for both grain and pasture. Is there something that is a light feeder, possibly perennial, produces abundant storable seeds, and leaves behind a useful grazing material so that a greater percentage of a given acreage could be devoted to storable grains? I even think of something like lamb's quarter that produces a lot of seed per square foot by the end of July and leaves plenty of leaves behind in the bargain. Is there a way to harvest it other than a scythe? This might be an issue the Land Institute is working on, but I wonder if you've watched your sheep grazing something in the fall and thought – "I could make pancakes out of that…"? Once again, a simple proof that not only is chemical farming totally unscientific and unsustainable, but that a national diet based on corn only makes sense for vertically-integrated grain cartels.

Going off DennisP’s comment about “idle” land, it does seem the sticking point of your system for most farmers is that in a given area, only ~17% of acreage could be devoted to a “cash crop” in a given year. I know cornstalks can be grazed or used as ensilage after harvest – I wonder whether you’ve thought about whether there would be a more ideal dual-purpose crop than corn for both grain and pasture. Is there something that is a light feeder, possibly perennial, produces abundant storable seeds, and leaves behind a useful grazing material so that a greater percentage of a given acreage could be devoted to storable grains? I even think of something like lamb’s quarter that produces a lot of seed per square foot by the end of July and leaves plenty of leaves behind in the bargain. Is there a way to harvest it other than a scythe?

This might be an issue the Land Institute is working on, but I wonder if you’ve watched your sheep grazing something in the fall and thought – “I could make pancakes out of that…”?

]]> By: DennisP http://www.yourlocalmarketblog.com/2009/07/22/the-two-sides-of-an-organic-vs-chemical-story/#comment-5430 DennisP Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:30:45 +0000 http://organictobe.org/?p=3065#comment-5430 Gene - In saying the land lay "idle" I was trying to state the other farmer's perspective, that the land could have been generating much greater current cash income from cash crops. I understand your point of view; I should after reading a half-dozen of your books. Gene – In saying the land lay “idle” I was trying to state the other farmer’s perspective, that the land could have been generating much greater current cash income from cash crops. I understand your point of view; I should after reading a half-dozen of your books.

]]> By: Gene Logsdon http://www.yourlocalmarketblog.com/2009/07/22/the-two-sides-of-an-organic-vs-chemical-story/#comment-5429 Gene Logsdon Thu, 23 Jul 2009 14:00:21 +0000 http://organictobe.org/?p=3065#comment-5429 Thanks to all of the above for such interesting comments. DennisP: this land does not lay "idle" most of the time, as you put it. It is in grazed pasture. That is the whole point to me. It would be better, I think, to have most of the land in grazed pasture most of the time and only a little in cultivated grains. As for shade factor a couple of you mention, the trees run north and south and so the two sides get equal amounts of sunlight, right? Thanks to all of the above for such interesting comments. DennisP: this land does not lay “idle” most of the time, as you put it. It is in grazed pasture. That is the whole point to me. It would be better, I think, to have most of the land in grazed pasture most of the time and only a little in cultivated grains. As for shade factor a couple of you mention, the trees run north and south and so the two sides get equal amounts of sunlight, right?

]]> By: philco http://www.yourlocalmarketblog.com/2009/07/22/the-two-sides-of-an-organic-vs-chemical-story/#comment-5426 philco Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:48:06 +0000 http://organictobe.org/?p=3065#comment-5426 I noticed shadows from your corn point to the right and shade the sod strip somewhat. I would have to assume the taller trees are also shading to the right which would put the first row in shade some of the time thus reducing the lumen intensity and reducing photosynthesis and plant size. Corn is a C4 photosynthesizer (as are most grasses) so it is sensitive to light intensity. Maybe the shadows are not a variable but from the pic I had to comment on it. I am a firm believer in organic methods and believe black carbon residue from pyrolytic processes could be a panacea for both depeleted soil and increasing CO2 levels. I noticed shadows from your corn point to the right and shade the sod strip somewhat. I would have to assume the taller trees are also shading to the right which would put the first row in shade some of the time thus reducing the lumen intensity and reducing photosynthesis and plant size. Corn is a C4 photosynthesizer (as are most grasses) so it is sensitive to light intensity. Maybe the shadows are not a variable but from the pic I had to comment on it. I am a firm believer in organic methods and believe black carbon residue from pyrolytic processes could be a panacea for both depeleted soil and increasing CO2 levels.

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